Template talk:Lang

lang-xx missing tooltip?

Didn't {{lang-xx}} use to add a tooltip, the same as {{lang}}, or am I mistaken? For example:

• {{lang|fr|bonjour}}
  

  bonjour

  tooltip: French-language text

• {{lang-fr|bonjour}}
  

  French: bonjour

  no tooltip

— W.andrea (talk) 00:01, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps for a short time. In the olden days before Module:Lang, {{lang-fr}} called {{language with name}} which called {{lang}}. This wikitext form did not have a tooltip. During the transition to Module:Lang, {{lang}} was the first to be converted. The new {{lang}} has a tooltip. Before {{lang-fr}} was converted to directly call Module:Lang, it continued to call the new {{lang}} so did have a tooltip. When {{lang-fr}} was converted to directly call Module:Lang, the tooltip went away because it is redundant to the language label link that precedes the French language text.

If you must have the redundant tooltip, you can use {{language with name}}:

{{language with name|fr|French|bonjour}} → French: bonjour – has a tooltip because this template calls {{lang}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

the tooltip went away because it is redundant to the language label

Oh, of course! I don't know how I didn't realize that. Thanks! — W.andrea (talk) 01:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Schrödinger's language template

The latest run of Special:WantedCategories featured a redlink for Category:Articles containing no linguistic content-language text, autogenerated by an invocation of {{Lang-zxx}} in emoji.

Now, I grok the context of what it would be for — the template was used in the emoji article to reify a short series of non-linguistic colour-code boxes into "language", because of a technical glitch that was bleeding into the rest of the paragraph when the colour codes were just sitting as raw "text" not wrapped in a lang template, so basically it's a wrapper for non-linguistic content (symbols, colour codes, etc.) that has to be treated as para-linguistic for some technical reason or other. But its name is weird and illogical on its face — "no linguistic content language"? — and it's a category that has existed in the past but was deleted. I was able to make it go away by wrapping the lang-zxx template in the {{suppress categories}} wrapper, but since it's template-generated it may recur again in the future.

So is this a category that we want, at either that seemingly oxymoronic name or another more logical alternative? Obviously it can be created if it's desired and its name is considered fine — but if an alternative name would be more desirable, then the lang-zxx template needs to be modified to generate that alternative name instead, and if it's undesirable at any name then the lang-zxx template needs to be prevented from generating it at all. But those are both things that would require a higher level of template-coding expertise than I've got, so I'm bringing it to the project's attention so that I don't break stuff. Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 15:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The category was nominated for CSD G8 deletion 22 September 2020 by Editor Gonnym without explanation and deleted the same day by Editor Maile66 using an automated process; also without explanation. Seems to me that the category should not have been deleted because the category was marked with {{Possibly empty category}}. Perhaps this was an oversight because at the time we were shifting the category documentation templates from {{Category articles containing non-English-language text}} which required parameters to {{Non-English-language text category}} which does not require parameters.

I am wholly indifferent to the category name. If it is really important, it can be changed but I see no pressing need.

A benefit of template documentation is that it lists available parameters. For {{lang}} (and its {{lang-xx}} counterparts) the documentation lists both |nocat= (accepting a variety of positive values) and |cat= accepting a variety of negative values). Both parameters accomplish the same thing: when set appropriately, the template will not emit categories.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't remember why I nominated it. If it is only created by usages of Template:Lang-zxx and that template did not exist at the time, then that probably was a likely reason, as those categories shouldn't be manually populated and at the time there was no automatic template handling this. Gonnym (talk) 18:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The OP erred; there is no {{lang-zxx}} in Emoji and that template did not exist at the time of the category's deletion. But, {{lang|zxx|...}} was/is a legitimate use (Emoji has {{lang|zxx-Zsye|🏻 🏼 🏽 🏾 🏿}}). Use of {{lang|zxx|...}} would have emitted Category:Articles containing no linguistic content-language text then as it does now; see line 548 et seq. (19 September 2020 permalink) in Module:Lang.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Rut

Hello!
Please change in the (1) Module:Lang/data/iana languages: ["rut"] = {"Rutul"} to ["rut"] = {"Rutulian"}.   (and also in these modules: (2) Module:ISO_639_name/ISO_639-3, (3) Module:ISO_639_name/ISO_639_name_to_code)
Thank you. Digitalberry (talk) 08:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Not what it's called in the ISO 639 specification. Remsense诉 08:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Could you give me the source (link) you are referring to? Digitalberry (talk) 08:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't find the source. Can you provide me with the source? Digitalberry (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, the source is ISO 639. You can see a corresponding table we have at ISO 639:r Remsense诉 10:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, you could've followed the ISO 639 link on the Rutul language page itself. Remsense诉 10:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. Still, the data indicated there is erroneous and needs to be clarified. Digitalberry (talk) 10:22, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

That's unfortunate; this tool and many other second-order tools use the ISO-assigned name, so there's not much to do here I'm afraid. Remsense诉 10:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

We can override some language names used by {{lang}} which are taken from the IANA language subtag registry which draws tags/names from all of the ISO 639 standards. The override is accomplished in Module:Lang/data when there is evidence of sufficient consensus to do so. That consensus often takes the form of an en.wiki article under the desired name. That is not the case here.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the right way is to change the information via a request to ISO-639. Digitalberry (talk) 11:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Spelling of "Romanization"

Any way to allow the BrE spelling of "Romanisation" when using e.g. Template:lang-grc? An optional parameter like |-ise=y (similar to how date templates have |df=y) would seem like a possible solution. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, I have not looked in the the details. There has to be a better parameter name; |engvar=gb? Module:lang currently supports eight regional variants of English:

["en-au"] = "Australian English",
["en-ca"] = "Canadian English",
["en-gb"] = "British English",
["en-ie"] = "Irish English",
["en-in"] = "Indian English",
["en-nz"] = "New Zealand English",
["en-us"] = "American English",
["en-za"] = "South African English"

If we do this, the default will remain as it is: |engvar=us.

Your task is to research these variants and group them by suffix: ~ise or ~ize (or other?). Report back with the results.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I am honoured -- let's see if I can do this with a nice table. Data source for the moment is our respective articles on the dialects, except for South African English, which luckily has plenty of results on Google to say that it follows the British system.

EngVar	Suffix
en-au	-ise
en-ca	-ize
en-gb	-ise
en-ie	-ise
en-in	-ise
en-nz	-ise
en-us	-ize
en-za	-ise

It might be worth clarifying in the documentation that if people want to use e.g. Oxford English (which uses -ize but otherwise follows regular BrE), they can just set the parameter to en-us and it won't affect anything except that single word? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Done:

{{lang-ja|東京タワー |translit=Tōkyō tawā |engvar=ca}}

Japanese: 東京タワー, romanized: Tōkyō tawā

{{lang-ja|東京タワー |translit=Tōkyō tawā |engvar=za}}

Japanese: 東京タワー, romanised: Tōkyō tawā

{{lang-ja|東京タワー |translit=Tōkyō tawā |engvar=}}

Japanese: 東京タワー, romanized: Tōkyō tawā

also works in {{transliteration}} (in the tool tips)

{{transliteration|ja|Tōkyō tawā |engvar=ca}}

Tōkyō tawā

{{transliteration|ja|Tōkyō tawā |engvar=nz}}

Tōkyō tawā

{{transliteration|ja|Tōkyō tawā}}

Tōkyō tawā

and for the three transliteration standards names that use the term 'Romani(sz)ation'; Revised Romanization of Korean:

{{transliteration|ko|rr|test |engvar=ca}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|rr|test |engvar=nz}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|rr|test}}

test

Ukrainian National system of romanization

{{transliteration|ko|ukrainian |test |engvar=ca}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|ukrainian |test |engvar=nz}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|ukrainian |test}}

test

Yale romanization of Korean:

{{transliteration|ko|yaleko|test |engvar=ca}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|yaleko|test |engvar=au}}

test

{{transliteration|ko|yaleko|test}}

test

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks -- really nice work, and kudos for catching the tooltip case as well. Just implemented on Fear and trembling and seems to work well. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

lang-my outputs tofu on my browser (FF)

I've been removing lang-my where I come across it because it turns burmese script into tofu. Not sure what the problem is, but assume it's forcing a script to display that I don't have installed. I have a number of burmese scripts, though, including generic ones like Noto, so display shouldn't be a problem. — kwami (talk) 09:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't do that without evidence that {{lang-my}} is at fault. Here are examples of differently written Burmese text:

မြန်မာအက္ခရာ ← plain text; no markup

မြန်မာအက္ခရာ ← <span>မြန်မာအက္ခရာ</span>

မြန်မာအက္ခရာ ← <span lang="my">မြန်မာအက္ခရာ</span>

{{lang-my|မြန်မာအက္ခရာ}} ← {{lang-my|မြန်မာအက္ခရာ}}

{{lang-my|မြန်မာအက္ခရာ}}

For me, all of the above render correctly (win 10, chrome). Do any of the above render correctly for you?

We have had discussions with you about fonts in the past:

Template talk:Lang/Archive 2 § Screwing up formatting

Template talk:Lang/Archive 2 § Which fonts are used?

Template talk:Lang/Archive 11 § bug in Rapa Nui language

Template talk:Lang/Archive 11 § bug with Chinese

None of those discussions revealed a problem with {{lang}}, the various {{lang-xx}}, or Module:Lang.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The results of 1 and 2 display correctly (as well as the code of all 5). lang="my" appears to be the problem, and lang-my appears to inherit that problem. — kwami (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

It is your browser that interprets the lang="my" attribute. If it does not interpret the attribute correctly, you will get rubbish for a rendering. Here I have switched the language tags (don't do this in mainspace):

မြန်မာအက္ခရာ ← <span lang="ja">မြန်မာအက္ခရာ</span> – lang="my" switched to lang="ja"

မြန်မာအက္ခရာ ← <span lang="ru">မြန်မာအက္ခရာ</span> – lang="ru" switched to lang="ru"

For me, they both render correctly.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, it's my browser then. Formatting those as 'ja' or 'ru' works for me too, but 'my' ruins it. Bizarre that FF doesn't render 'my' by default. I'll look for overrides. Thanks. — kwami (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Huh, same for Geʽez script. A bit of tofu in the basic block; the subsequent blocks are completely tofu except for the last, the obscure Extended-B, which displays perfectly, just as the obscure Burmese block does. But in this case, changing the language setting to 'ja' or 'ru' doesn't help. — kwami (talk) 05:07, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I was reminded recently that it isn't the browser that maintains fonts but rather it is the operating system. When the browser wants to display something, it uses the operating system to do it. If your operating system doesn't support these fonts then no display. At Geʽez script, my browser (chrome, win 10) displays all of the unicode characters except those in Ethiopic Extended-B. These are from Ethiopic Extended-A and display correctly both as plain text and when marked up by {{lang}}:

ꬁꬂꬃꬄꬅꬆ ← plain text

ꬁꬂꬃꬄꬅꬆ ← <span title="Ge'ez-language text"><span lang="gez">ꬁꬂꬃꬄꬅꬆ</span></span> ←{{lang|gez|ꬁꬂꬃꬄꬅꬆ}}

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that. What's weird is that I get the opposite results. I'd expect that anything that supports Extended-B would support anything earlier. If nothing past a certain point was displayed, I'd think I needed to update something. But its stuff earlier than a certain point that's the problem. — kwami (talk) 21:43, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Help:Multilingual support (Indic) might help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. — kwami (talk) 03:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

{{lang-my}} has been deleted; see Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2024_September_27/lang-??_templates. Calls to that template in this discussion have been disabled.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Block level

Is there a version of this template for use on block-level content? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

This template. It will correctly wrap <poem>...</poem> tags, ordered, unordered, and definition lists, and content wrapped in <div>...</div> tags.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:22, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Odd then that the opening sentence of the documentation refers to a "span of text". I'll change that. But what about simple paragraphs, singly or in multiple? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

A span of text does not necessarily mean the html <span>...</span> tags. The term span has been used as a descriptor since the first version (permalink) of the documentation (then held at Template talk:Lang). I would suppose that had the original author (Editor Monedula) meant the html <span>...</span> tags, they would have written something to the effect:

The purpose of this template is to indicate that text in HTML <span>...</span> tags belongs to a particular language.

Of coarse, at the time, {{lang}} only supported inline text.

Paragraphs written as normal wikipedia paragraphs are supported.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes; I was saying it was odd that it had never been updated to say that it covered block level content. I have now done so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I have seen Linter errors caused by the use of this template with block content. This version of my sandbox lists one missing end tag (for <p>) and at least one misnested pair of <i>...</i> tags. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 September 2024

Can someone please remove the following comments from Module:lang/data?:

• ["lij"] = "Ligurian (Romance language)" on line 384, because the article for the ISO 639-3 code lij is now 'Ligurian language',
• ["lij-mc"] = "Monégasque language" on line 385, because the correct article for the ISO 639-3 code lij-mc is 'Monégasque dialect',
• ['qwm'] = "Kuman (Russia)" on line 390, because the article 'Kuman (Russia)' now redirects to 'Cumans', and because the correct article for the ISO 639-3 code qwm is 'Cuman language',
• and ["xlg"] = "Ligurian (ancient language)" on line 394, because the article for the ISO 639-3 code xlg is now 'Ligurian language (ancient)'. PK2 (talk; contributions) 04:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

To do as you have asked would not have been the optimal solution.

["lij"] = "Ligurian (Romance language)" can be deleted because the language name for lij in Module:Lang/data/iana languages is 'Ligurian'

["lij-mc"] = "Monégasque language" because there is a duplicate in another table that would have caused lij-mc to link to 'Monégasque language'

['qwm'] = "Kuman (Russia)" can be deleted but the resulting link would be to Kuman (Russia) language from the language name for qwm in ~/iana languages: 'Kuman (Russia)'

["xlg"] = "Ligurian (ancient language)" can be deleted but the resulting link would be Ligurian (Ancient) language from the language name for xlg in ~/iana languages: 'Ligurian (Ancient)'

So, I have:

deleted ["lij"] = "Ligurian (Romance language)"

modified ["lij-mc"] = "Monégasque language" so that it points to 'Monégasque dialect'

{{lang|lij-mc|fn=name_from_tag|link=yes}} → Monégasque

deleted ['qwm'] = "Kuman (Russia)"

added ['qwm'] = "Cuman" to the override table

modified ["xlg"] = "Ligurian (ancient language)" so that it points to 'Ligurian language (ancient)'

{{lang|xlg|fn=name_from_tag|link=yes}} → Ligurian

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Hanja

For {{lang|ko-Hani}} (supposed to be for Hanja), it renders the "traditional" characters used for Hanja as simplified characters on iOS. This seems to be undesirable; Hanja doesn't use most of the simplified characters.

For example, on iOS {{lang|ko-Hani|龜}} renders incorrectly using the simplified char (⻱). However, on Mac desktop this issue doesn't occur.

I feel like we should recommend against people using ko-Hani or ko-Hant, and just ask them to stick to ko, which doesn't have this issue. seefooddiet (talk) 04:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

This is not an issue for {{lang}}. The character, no matter how it is rendered, is the same unicode character U+9F9C from the CJK Unified Ideographs unicode block. From your browser's point of view, the character is just a series of digits. Your browser and the operating system under which it is running decide which (of many) font faces is used to convert that series of digits to the character displayed on the screen. You can control that to some extent by providing the appropriate script subtag when you write a {{lang}} template but ultimately, the font face is chosen by the browser and its OS.

I suspect that iOS has physical limitations (available memory?) that determine how many font faces are available. If I understand the tables in CJK Unified Ideographs (search for 9F9C) there are seven ways to write the character that is 9F9C – 3 Chinese, 2 Korean, 1 Japanese, and 1 other (Vietnamese?). There are 20,735 characters identified in CJK Unified Ideographs; many (most?) of those have multiple ways to write a CJK character so it would not surprise me to learn that the iOS/browser designers elected to fall back to one or two of those ways when rendering a CJK character.

Regardless, when appropriate, we should always identify the correct script and not presume that all browsers have the same design as your iOS/browser. And who knows, perhaps at IOS v30 or whatever, the problem as you see it will have been resolved.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue you don't need script (writing system) tagging. Machines can easily identify the script by checking the code point of each character in a string.

Language tagging is needed for distinguishing different languages using the same script (e.g. English, Spanish; Russian, Bulgarian; etc.) or for distinguishing different orthographies using the same script in a language (e.g. Norwegian Bokmål/Nynorsk, Chinese simplified/traditional, etc.); it is not needed for distinguishing different scripts (Latin, Cyrillic, etc.).

Also, Hani is for text consisting of Chinese characters (hanzi, kanji, hanja) only. Hanja forms of Korean terms can also contain hangul (e.g. 서울特別市 – 서울 does not have hanja), so ko-Hani is not really appropriate anyway. I think ko is good enough. 172.56.232.227 (talk) 23:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Apparently I wasn't as clear as I ought to have been. I do not support writing es-Latn or ru-Cyrl, etc. But, for Spanish transliterated into Greek, for example, es-Grek is appropriate.

Hanja forms of Korean terms can also contain hangul. If I understand our article on Hanja, it is Chinese characters used to write Korean text. When that occurs, it would seem that the correct thing to do is to mark the text with ko-Hani. IANA seems to support this with this definition for Hani (see the IANA language-subtag-registry file):

%%
Type: script
Subtag: Hani
Description: Han
Description: Hanzi
Description: Kanji
Description: Hanja
Added: 2005-10-16
%%

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

In fact, there is a code specifically for hangul+hanja Korean text: ko-Kore. But for some reason no one uses this on Wikipedia.

Anyway, ko is good enough. 172.56.232.227 (talk) 04:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh neat, I didn't know that! Now I do, thank you. Remsense ‥ 论 06:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

ko-Kore not supported by IANA and so not supported by this template:

%%
Type: language
Subtag: ko
Description: Korean
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Kore
%%

{{lang|ko-Kore|龜}} → [龜] Error: {{Lang}}: script: kore not supported for code: ko (help)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 06:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that's a shame. In any case, Japanese is an analogous case as it also uses a mixed script, so simply ko would seem to suffice, with ko-Hani also usable for hanja-only text. Remsense ‥ 论 06:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're in agreement that ko-Hani is fine if it's exclusively Hanja, but if there is Korean mixed script then the more general ko is more accurate. seefooddiet (talk) 06:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Bingo! Remsense ‥ 论 07:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Possible bug

At the bottom of the page, List of transgender public officeholders in the United States is in the category "Category:Articles containing Neapolitan-language text", despite not having any Neapolitan text. I'm not seeing anything labeled {{lang|nap}} or anything like that, either. Snowman304|talk 13:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

That page transcludes Template:Transgender sidebar which does use that. Gonnym (talk) 14:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha! Thanks Snowman304|talk 14:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

Can someone please categorise the template {{lang-ku}} under Category:Iranian multilingual support templates instead of Category:Indo-Iranian multilingual support templates, and the templates {{lang-bn}}, {{lang-hi}}, {{lang-ne}}, {{lang-pa}}, {{lang-sa}} and {{lang-ur}} under Category:Indo-Aryan multilingual support templates instead of Category:Indo-Iranian multilingual support templates, because the categories 'Indo-Aryan multilingual support templates' and 'Iranian multilingual support templates' are more specific than the category 'Indo-Iranian multilingual support templates'? PK2 (talk; contributions) 03:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. Another reason why this system of creating hundred of templates like this is horrible maintenance-wise, when one template with a language code works. Gonnym (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

merge language-specific templates

For years I've wanted to create a {{lang-??}} template that would replace all of those hundred of templates. Alas, {{lang-xx}}, the most obvious choice for a template name, is used as a redirect to Template:Lang § Language-specific templates. One might argue that the language-specific templates need not be mentioned in Template:Lang/doc if {{lang-??}} was a template that accepted the same parameters as the language-specific templates. {{lang-x}} is used for documentation for the language-specific templates and would become superfluous if we created a single {{lang-??}} template.

We might:

1. create a redirect {{language-specific templates}}
2. replace all instances of {{lang-xx}} with {{language-specific templates}} so we could recover the {{lang-xx}} name
3. modify Module:lang to have a lang-xx() entry point
4. create {{lang-xx}} as a template that invokes the new lang-xx() entry point to Module:Lang
5. create Template:lang-xx/doc from {{lang-x}}
6. create language-tagged index of categories (as a new submodule?)
7. replace appropriate instances of the {{lang-XX|...}} templates with {{lang-xx|XX|...}} where -xx is literal and XX is the language tag and subtags if any (not all are appropriate, {{lang-zh}} for example; there are also {{lang-XX}} templates that have been 'augmented')
8. delete appropriate {{lang-XX}} templates that are supported by Module:lang (not all are appropriate)
9. replace instances of {{language-specific templates}} with links to {{lang-xx}}
10. delete {{language-specific templates}}
11. cleanup the mess

No doubt I've missed something here, not the least of which is community approval to make this change.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC) 16:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC) +category list 17:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC) strike category list

Yeah, that all sounds great and I support it. The past few years saw us move from instances of templates with multiple language or country versions, to one single template ({{ISO 639 name}}: TfD; {{In lang}}: TfD (part 1) and TfD (part 2); {{Globalize}}: TfD; {{Contains special characters}}: TfD; {{Wikt-lang}}: TfD), this isn't different. Another option for the name can be {{lang2}} (which currently is an unused unrelated redirect) since "lang-xx" doesn't have any semantic meaning either. Gonnym (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

It also seems that most usages of {{lang-xx}} is from transclusions of Module:Road data/strings/doc. Gonnym (talk) 16:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I have removed all but 16 usages of {{lang-xx}}. The remaining usages appear to be generated by an error, possibly in this module. If someone wants to dig in to the remaining 16, we can free up the template name for a better use. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I am beginning to favor {{langx}}; easier to write and no pre-existing conflicts to clean up. I am working to implement {{langx}} in Module:Lang/sandbox:

{{#invoke:lang/sandbox|langx|es|text}} → Spanish: text

{{#invoke:lang/sandbox|langx|he|text}} → Hebrew: text

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

If semantic meaning is a requirement, perhaps the solution is a change to {{lang}} where we add a parameter |<something>= that causes Module:Lang to select lang(), lang_xx_inherit(), or lang_xx_italic depending on the language tag supplied in the template call. The replacement in article space then becomes {{lang-XX|...}} → {{lang|XX|<something>=yes|...}}. I can imagine that editors won't like that so much and would want a more-or-less familiar shortcut which brings us back to {{lang-xx}} or {{lang2}} or {{langx}} or {{lang+}} or ...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. If we add too much character count it will fail. Gonnym (talk) 16:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Made this topic its own section.

I'm going to commandeer {{langx}} for use as a testbed/demonstrator with a module in my sandbox.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Category list. The categories listed in these various {{lang-??}} templates (like those listed at Template talk:Lang § Template-protected edit request on 18 September 2024) seem to be mostly collections of related templates (see Category:Iranian multilingual support templates as an example). Because a single {{langx}} template can't be categorized in this way there is no need to support those collection categories. I have struck it from the list.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's another thing that gets simplified. The category system at Category:Wikipedia multilingual support templates will get trimmed by quite a lot. Gonnym (talk) 17:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The sandbox module is pretty simple, doesn't do error checking (leaves that for _lang_xx() in Module:Lang) and chooses upright font if the language tag is listed in a table of upright tags; italic else:

{{langx|es|casa}} → Spanish: casa

{{langx|he|לעז}} → Hebrew: לעז

{{langx|aaa|לעז}} → Ghotuo: ɔ-kàkà – there is no {{lang-aaa}}

I suppose that the next thing to do is to hack on Module:Lang/sandbox so that it can support both {{langx}} and {{lang-??}}. That will be necessary if or when we transition from the one to the other. I think that we ought to leave support for {{lang-??}} in the module so that the ~155 wikis that use it can adapt to the change in their own time.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Module:Episode list, Module:Nihongo, and Module:Lang/utilities will need to be adjusted if we transition to {{langx}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with leaving in the lang-?? support. I think maybe a note should be added to its documentation that this usage is the deprecated method. Gonnym (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I had thought to enforce the deprecation by testing the value returned in lines 27 & 28; if en and calling _lang_xx, return an error message.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

That's also a good idea. Gonnym (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Module:Lang/sandbox now supports {{langx}}. For the most part, {{langx}} uses the code already present for the {{lang-??}} templates. But because of that, it is necessary that all of the testcases in Module:Lang/testcases pass. As of this writing, they do.

Because many of the {{lang-??}} templates render text in an upright font, I created Module:Lang/langx which holds several tables so that Module:Lang/sandbox can render the {{langx}} template identically to the corresponding {{lang-??}}. For example:

{{lang-es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i>[[Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates]] → Spanish: casa

{{langx|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa

{{lang-he|עִבְרִית}} → [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: <span lang="he" dir="rtl">עִבְרִית</span>[[Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates]] → Hebrew: עִבְרִית

{{langx|he|עִבְרִית}} → [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: <span lang="he" dir="rtl">עִבְרִית</span> → Hebrew: עִבְרִית

In my sandbox (permalink), all of the {{lang-??}} templates are compared to their {{langx}} counterparts. There are two {{lang-??}} templates that do not match. Both of those wrap the module invoke with <span class="Unicode">...</span>: {{lang-mrj}} and {{lang-sty}}. I have a vague memory that suggests that it was once necessary to use that class but with certain changes to MediaWiki, the requirement for the Unicode class was removed. If I do remember correctly, these two templates might be edited to remove the class span. If, for some reason, the class is required, Module:lang and Module:lang/langx can be modified to support it for mrj and sty

At this writing, Category:Lang-x templates lists 1156 {{lang-??}} and other templates. This number includes the 10 templates in Category:Constructed language multilingual support templates but, rightly, does not include the 14 templates listed in Category:Lang-x templates with other than ISO 639.

Of the 1156, four are redirects. The remaining 13 templates are not supported by {{langx}} though some might be:

• {{Language with name}} – an older, manual form of {{langx}}; calls {{lang}} to do text rendering
• {{lang-ku-Arab}} – uses {{language with name}} and {{script/Arabic}}
• {{lang-mnc}} – uses {{language with name}} and has support for two types of transliteration; might be converted to lang-xx and {{langx}}? Manchu language; would need to add transliteration identifiers to Module:Lang/data
• {{lang-kmr}} – uses {{language with name}}; can be converted to lang-xx and {{langx}}? Kurmanji Kurdish language converted to Module:Lang 2024-09-22
• {{lang-grc-gre}} – invalid language tag; Module:Lang does not support legitimate IETF extlang subtags; gre is not a legitimate extlang subtag
• {{lang-ka}} – uses {{language with name}} and {{ka-translit}}
• {{lang-tdd}} – uses {{language with name}}; can be converted to lang-xx and {{langx}}? Tai Nuea language converted Module:Lang 2024-09-22
• {{lang-prk}} – uses {{language with name}}; can be converted to lang-xx and {{langx}}? Parauk language converted Module:Lang 2024-09-22
• {{lang-zh}} – uses Module:Lang-zh
• {{lang-wbm}} – uses {{language with name}}; can be converted to lang-xx and {{langx}}? Vo language converted Module:Lang 2024-09-22
• {{lang-su-fonts}} – wraps invoke in <span lang="su" style="font-family:'Noto Sans Sundanese', 'Sundanese Unicode 2013'; font-size:;">...</span> tag
• {{lang-rus}} – uses {{language with name}} and {{IPA}}
• {{spell-nv}} – uses {{lang}} wrapped in <span style="font-family: Aboriginal Sans, DejaVu Sans, Calibri, Arial Unicode MS, sans-serif;">...</span> tag; does not belong in Category:Lang-x templates

Many (most?) of the {{lang-??}} templates include category links in their wikitext. Most appear to use some form of 'Category:<language name> multilingual support template' category. Leaving out those categories, this search returns 13 templates with some sort of category link. These are:

• {{lang-el}} – Category:Instances of Lang-el using second unnamed parameter; {{2}} is the transliteration parameter so why do we care? template modified and category deleted 2024-09-24
• {{lang-sh}} – Category:Articles using Lang-sh with second positional parameter; Serbo-Croatian gives equal standing to Cyrillic and Latin scripts so the 'transliteration' parameter is inappropriate for rendering both scripts; for this, use {{lang-x2}} or the more specific {{lang-sh-Cyrl-Latn}} or {{lang-sh-Latn-Cyrl}}
• {{lang-ko}} – Category:Korean name templates; may be a Korean template but not tied to Korean names exclusively moved to Category:Korean language templates 2024-09-24
• {{lang-okm}} – same
• {{lang-sco}} – Category:Lang-x templates with unsupported parameters; |abbr= documented but not supported; no evidence of use in the wild except ~/testcases fixed 2024-09-23
• {{lang-mn}} – Category:Mongolian language; redundant to the Module:Lang-created category: Category:Articles containing Mongolian-language text
• {{lang-eu}} – Category:Basque templates; if these {{lang-??}} templates go away (as they should) nothing lost
• {{lang-euq}} – Category:Basque templates; same
• {{lang-pap}} – Category:Papiamento; same
• {{lang-xno}} – Category:Anglo-Norman literature; template is not literature; as above moved to Category:Norman language 2024-09-24
• {{lang-cdo}} – Category:Min Dong Chinese support templates; only item in category; both can go away category deleted 2024-09-24
• {{lang-clm}} – Category:Klallam multilingual support templates; shouldn't be in this list but but is because the category link has a tab character after the colon; apparently no cat of that name with or without the extra whitespace fixed 2024-09-23
• {{lang-ykg}} – Category:Yukaghir languages; not a language template removed from category 2024-09-24

I think that Module:Lang/sandbox is ready to go. Yea or nay? If yea then we need to consider the process of retiring the 1100+ {{lang-??}} templates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll of course support it. After the replacement of the templates, and deletion, it will be easier to spot the leftover templates that need additional work (like the ones in your list above). Gonnym (talk) 22:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like an excellent simplification. I am sure that we will run into a few stumbles along the way, but edge cases can either be dealt with or left behind as exceptions to the general "no lang-xx" templates practice. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Right then, Module:Lang updated from Module:Lang/sandbox so {{langx}} is live; Template:Langx/doc created from a hacked version of Template:Lang-x/doc (needs work; see the TODOs there).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I have converted {{lang-kmr}}, {{lang-tdd}}, {{lang-prk}}, and {{lang-wbm}} in the list above to directly use Module:Lang.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Is there anything I can do to help us get to the point where we are ready with replacement? Gonnym (talk) 17:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that we're ready with the exceptions of writing a bot to do the replacements and deciding how to word a TfD that will provoke the fewest editors into reaching for their pitchforks and at the same time gain the greatest support. You are for more experienced with TfD and what succeeds there than I, so if you have a suggestion for that... Do we need to mark all 1140-ish templates with TfD notices? If so, that will also need doing; could probably do that with AWB – of course that is the sort of thing that brings out the torches and pitchforks...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

We do need to tag all templates, but |type=disabled (in my opinion) should be used so the pages aren't completely full of TfD everywhere (which usually gets people angry).

Regarding the TfD text...well I'm sure we're going to get the angry mob no matter what. But a few things we can mention

• Character count (langx|??) 7 vs (lang-??) 6 - so only one character more, a non-issue
• Removing the need for:
  • Maintenance: Adding categories
  • Fixes: Template:Lang-tdd, Template:Lang-prk, Template:Lang-clm has over two years a broken category
  • Creating new language templates (many are still being created and left unused): Template:Lang-mtm, Template:Lang-nio, Template:Lang-ohu examples of recently created templates
  • Watching 1500+ templates for vandalism (do you maybe have an example?)
• Past experience with similar nominations {{ISO 639 name}} (TfD), {{In lang}} (TfD (part 1) and TfD (part 2)), {{Wikt-lang}} (TfD) has proven that it works.

Gonnym (talk) 19:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, all of those TfD notices do cause anger. But, editors will also get angry for not being notified when all of a sudden a bot shows up to rewrite all of the {{lang-??}} templates. Is there a middle ground? Perhaps we show the TfD notice on one or two of the templates with significant use? Perhaps {{lang-de}} (~40280 articles) or {{lang-ru}} (~95500 articles)? Or, we can choose four or five templates that aren't used as much?

How about this? Too long; won't read? Too technical? Too detailed? Too...? reworked 18:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Replace and delete the approximately 1145 {{lang-??}} templates listed at [[]] with the single template {{langx}}.

The {{lang-??}} templates are all more-or-less forks of some ancient ancestor. Like {{lang}} the primary purpose of these templates is to render non-English text in a way that is html-correct and compliant with the Manual of Style. {{langx}} uses the same rendering code as the {{lang-??}} templates so, given the same language tag and text, renders an identical output:

{{lang-es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i>[[Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates]] → Spanish: casa

{{langx|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i> → Spanish: casa

Like {{lang}}, {{langx}} supports all of the 8000+ languages listed in the IANA language-subtag-registry file. {{lang-??}}: one template for one language; {{langx}}: one template for 8000 languages.

Background

The {{lang-??}} templates differ from {{lang}} in that they prefix the non-English text with a link to the language article name: {{lang|es|casa}} → <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">casa</i></span> → casa {{lang-es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i>[[Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates]] → Spanish: casa For editors who need another language template, their options til now have been: fork a new {{lang-??}} template use the lang_xx_italic() utility function in {{lang}} {{lang|code=es|text=casa|fn=lang_xx_italic}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <i lang="es">casa</i>[[Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates]] → Spanish: casa manually prepend a language-article link to {{lang}}: [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: {{lang|es|casa}} → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: <span title="Spanish-language text"><i lang="es">casa</i></span> →Spanish: casa create the template using {{language with name}} (which more-or-less does what item 3 does...) do it all manually (not recommended because not html correct): [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: ''casa'' → [[Spanish language|Spanish]]: ''casa'' → Spanish: casa Previous TfDs related to language tagging: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 14 § ISO 639 name from code templates Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2019 July 5 § Link language wrappers (part 1), Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 February 23 § remaining link language wrappers (part 2) Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 August 5 § Wiktionary link templates (fewer templates involved but still related to language tagging)

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC) reworked 18:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe put the sections relevant to the nomination together (the start and the end), and then add in the technical behind the secnes information for anyone wanting a more detailed explanation to the differences.

There are approximately 1145 lang-?? templates; all more-or-less forks of some ancient ancestor. Like {{lang}} the primary purpose of these templates is to render non-English text in a way that is html-correct and compliant with the Manual of Style {{langx}} uses the same rendering code as the lang-?? templates so, given the same language tag and text, renders an identical output: -examples- Like {{lang}}, {{langx}} supports all of the 8000+ languages listed in the IANA language-subtag-registry file. lang-??: one template for one language; {{langx}}: one template for 8000 languages. Gonnym (talk) 17:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Reworked some. Better? Worse? Still too...?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this looks good. @Jonesey95 thoughts? Gonnym (talk) 19:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

My experience with TFD is that sometimes biting off a huge chunk creates too much drama and backfires. I would pick ten simple, widely used templates from the set (i.e. don't pick any edge cases; pick ones that will definitely convert cleanly), explain briefly what you propose to replace them with, and then say that if it works, you will bring the remaining 1,100 templates back to TFD using the ten-template TFD as a basis for consensus. Link to this discussion. Doing the process in two phases will probably take less time and cause less drama than trying to do it in one phase. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I guess I don't like this option. It means multiple TfDs which can have multiple outcomes. In the case where the TfD results in merge/delete for some but not for others (because different crowds of editors) there is nothing to prevent the recreation of those templates that were merged/deleted unless we salt those templates. What a headache. For me, I would rather the proposal be accepted or rejected as a whole, {{langx}} will still be here regardless of the outcome (unless someone does a successful reverse TfD to replace/delete {{langx}}).

I can see that it might be necessary to have something to offer so that the enacting of an affirmative would be done in stages rather than as one giant bot run to replace all {{lang-??}} templates. But, that need not be offered from the outset but withheld until needed. But this option is different from Editor Jonesey95's option.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Go for it. I will support either direction. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I also prefer, in this case, a complete nomination. Gonnym (talk) 22:19, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

You didn't answer my Reworked some. Better? Worse? Still too...? question...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I said I think it looks good like that. It explains what we are doing and why and then lets editors who want read into it more. Gonnym (talk) 08:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk can you look at the /doc? I'm not sure |code= is correct for this template. Not sure about if the others are also still relevant. Gonnym (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

|1= and |code= should not be listed separately; they are the same thing in {{langx}}. If both are supplied, |1= wins. |code= is not set by the template (that is only for {{lang-??}}). If |code= is used, then the positional parameters for text (and transliteration and translation if needed) must use their named parameters |text=, |translit=, and |translation= or their explicitly stated numerical aliases |2=, |3=, |4=.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Break

I've came across Template:Lang-az-Cyrl and Template:Lang-lmo-IT that aren't in Category:Lang-x templates (not sure why) and aren't in the TfD nomination. Should they be? --Gonnym (talk) 09:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

{{Lang-az-Cyrl}} is one of a couple of dozen that escaped the search. I will add them as an addendum this morning. {{Lang-lmo-IT}} is a wrapper around {{Language with name}} for the Bergamasque dialect of Lombard so not a 'language' per se. Not currently supported by Module:Lang except by the tag lmo-IT which the module knows as Lombard ({{Language with name}} uses {{lang}} for html compliance).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Looking at Template:Lang-bcs, it links (via a MoS invalid redirect) to Serbo-Croatian. That has the code of "hbs". Shouldn't that template also be part of the regular list then? Gonnym (talk) 14:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

bcs is the IANA language tag for Kohumono; a Nigerian language so nothing to do with Serbo-Croatian. {{lang-bcs}} uses a custom label and is a wrapper template. The initial list and the addenda are only supposed to list those templates that directly invoke Module:lang because those templates comprise the vast majority of {{lang-??}} templates. After we dispose of those templates, what remains can be dealt with case-by-case.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok, I didn't even check if bcs was an actual code for something else. How am I not surprised. Gonnym (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I've converted Template:Lang-lmo-cr to use the standard style and it seems to be working correctly. That can also be added to the list. Gonnym (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, the dialect isn't recognized and needs a manual label, so doesn't fit. Gonnym (talk) 14:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I have created Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates to collect pages from all namespaces that use a {{lang-??}} template that calls one of the module functions lang_xx_inherit() or lang_xx_italic(). This category can be used as a resource for a bot when (if) the TfD closes in the affirmative. A category is better than a cirrus search which, for the {{lang-??}} templates, times out.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice work. The category will also catch all sorts of edge case formatting of template parameters that searches (or searchers) have a difficult time finding. A note: if categories are working as they have historically, this category may take days or weeks to fill up. Expect to be dealing with stragglers for a while. Individual templates can and should always be checked via "What links here" before they are deleted. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Which is why I created the category now, before the TfD is done and before I take Monkbot 20 to WP:BRFA. Of course this all assumes that the TfD closes in the affirmative.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:55, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:BRFA filed: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval § Monkbot 20

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I have tweaked Module:Lang and Module:Lang/langx to emit a category link whenever {{langx}} has one of the language tags from a template listed at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 27/lang-?? templates § excluded templates. See Category:Langx uses unsupported language tag. The purpose of this is to help (over?) enthusiastic editors to not convert the excluded templates and for the rest of us to know where to look. Pages in that category are sorted by language tag.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Good idea. I wish the BRFA would have already been given a trial so your bot could do have already handled the replacement. Gonnym (talk) 15:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Even had it been through BRFA, there isn't a chance that it could have got through the 80,314 pages in Category:Pages using Lang-xx templates. I have been manually editing thousands of pages using the bot's code and have hardly made a dent. I think that I have fixed all of the category and file namespace pages and (so far) managed to keep the total count to just below 600,000 ... the category is still being populated.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I've restored the usages of lang-ka in the category. I think the category is catching false positives. Your edit here seems to be correct as {{Lang-sh}} is tagged, but maybe the code is catching {{Lang-sh-Cyrl-Latn}} or one of the others. Gonnym (talk) 08:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. {{lang-sh}} sets |script=Latn which, in the module, gets appended to the language subtag sh → sh-Latn. {{lang-sh-Latn}} does the same. When it came time to test the language tag against the list of unsupported language tags, both {{lang-sh}} and {{lang-sh-Latn}} triggered the category. Fixed by testing the unmodified language tag, sh, against the list of unsupported language tags. This should be adequate because most editors who are tweaking {{lang-??}} to {{langx}} won't change the ?? portion of the template.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:00, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Moldovan Cyrillic

An editor moved {{Lang-mo-Cyrl}} to {{Moldovan Cyrillic}}, which broke the documentation nicely. Many of the transclusions were replaced with the new name. It may need some special attention during the migration. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

That template is excluded from the TfD because it uses a custom label.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

a way to mark something as being in multiple languages

Maybe this is pie-in-the-sky, or a different matter entirely, but it would be nice if there were a way to mark something as being in multiple languages, e.g., Czech and Slovak from Chort: A chort (Russian: чёрт, Belarusian and Ukrainian: чорт, Serbo-Croatian čort or črt, Polish: czart and czort, Czech and Slovak: čert, Slovene: črt) Snowman304|talk 19:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Not in these templates. The primary purpose of these templates is to provide correct html markup for non-English text. html allows only one lang= attribute per tag. Which one of these multiple languages would apply? Browsers use this attribute to choose a proper font; screen readers use the attribute to control pronunciation. Do Belarusians and Ukrainians pronounce 'чорт' the same way? If not then that suggests that a different way of writing that lead sentence should be preferred.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Gotcha, I wasn't thinking about those things at all. Snowman304|talk 21:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Italics in foreign-language text

I'm struggling with what to do with foreign-language text containing italic text while following default rules on foreign-language italicization. Specifically, I'm working on Template:Translated blockquote. The default rules are described at Template:Lang#Automatic italics and defined at Module:Lang#L-996.

Option	Source	Issue
{{lang|fr|Je suis un clown nommé ''Maurice''|italic=unset}}	Category:Lang and lang-xx template errors	Doesn't use the default italicization
{{lang|fr|Je suis {{noitalic|English}}.}}	Template:Lang#Automatic italics	Uses Template:Noitalic, when the content should invert italics relative to the surrounding text.
tûndra	Template:Lang#italic parameter	Doesn't use the default italicization

I have edited Template:Lang/with italics (permalink) as a proof-of-concept that can accept the following kinds of markup:

Markup	Renders as
{{Lang/with italics|en|Some text}}	Some text
{{Lang/with italics|en|Some <i>italic</i> text}}	Some italic text
{{Lang/with italics|fr|Je suis française.}}	Je suis française.
{{Lang/with italics|fr|Je ''suis'' française.}}	Je suis française.
{{Lang/with italics|he|לעז}}	לעז
{{Lang/with italics|he|''לעז''}}	לעז

My implementation is really klunky, so this isn't an edit request. It just seemed easier for me to implement in the template rather than the Lua module.

Questions:

1. Why doesn't Template:Lang accept italics in its text, as Template:Lang/with italics does?
2. What do you recommend I do with Template:Translated blockquote? At the moment, it uses |italic=invert. It could use Template:Lang/with italics by a more permanent name, eg Template:Lang/with italics.

Daask (talk) 20:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

{{lang}} emits errors because in the beginning of this module's life, there were a bunch of {{lang|es|''casa''}}, holdovers from the time that Latn-script text had to be manually italicized. This doesn't happen so much anymore now that editors have learned the 'new' way. But, this italics prohibition brought with it the problem of what to do with mixed italic/upright text. The solution to that was |italic=unset and |italic=invert. So far as I know, there has been no call for any other options.

What is wrong with using |italic=invert? Does it not do what you need doing?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: The |italic=default only italicizes Roman-script text, whereas |italic=invert always italicizes the text, regardless of script.

Eg. {{Lang|italic=invert|he|לעז}} → לעז vs. {{Lang/with italics|he|לעז}} → לעז

Daask (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we could add an option |allow-italics=yes to omit error messages about italics within the text? Daask (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

On second thought, Category:Lang and lang-xx template errors is empty except for a citation template issue, so I suggest the Template:Lang/with italics behavior be made the default. These error messages are no longer necessary. Daask (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. These italics errors do still appear. The template is responsible for styling the rendered non-English text so it considers italic markup an error unless the editor has explicitly directed the template to allow the markup.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes: |italic=default only italicizes Roman-script text – this determination happens at lines 996–1003; see also lines 94–135

The purpose of invert is to flip italicized text within upright text so that you get upright text within italicized text. This is a completely bogus example because the English text should never be marked up as Hebrew:

{{Lang|italic=invert|he|some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text ''לעז'' and then some more italic text}}

some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text לעז and then some more italic text

So, the module inverts everything to the opposite markup:

some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text ''לעז'' and then some more italic text

some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text לעז and then some more italic text

becomes:

''some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text ''לעז'' and then some more italic text''

some italic text followed by inverted Hebrew text לעז and then some more italic text

If there is no italic markup, |italic=invert is the same as |italic=yes as you demonstrated in your example. Conversely, when there is only italicized text:

{{Lang|he|''לעז''|italic=invert}}

לעז

Your example:

{{Lang/with italics|he|''לעז''}} → לעז

can be achieved with any of these:

{{Lang|he|לעז|italic=yes}} → לעז

{{Lang|he|לעז|italic=invert}} → לעז

{{Lang|he|''לעז''|italic=unset}} → לעז

These |italic= parameter values are working as they are intended to work.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: I have current set Template:Translated blockquote to use Template:Lang/with italics, because I see no way to use Template:lang. I need the default behavior (which Template:Lang/with italics detects via Template:lang/italicize), but I also need to omit error messages. I apologize for being overly bold in suggesting that the error messages are no longer useful, but I need a means to omit them. Daask (talk) 14:55, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Daask, I think you should not implement any italics for Cyrillic until you get sufficient consensus to overturn Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting, in particular, MOS:BADITALICS. Is this sandboxed now? If so, please do not release it until a wider discussion has been had about it. Mathglot (talk) 01:12, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mathglot: I'm confused by your comment. {{Lang/with italics}} and {{Lang}} use the same default italicization. {{Lang/with italics}} just omits the error messages when the text contains manual italicization. I have no intention of proposing changes to WP:MOS related to this topic. Can you give an example of your concern? Daask (talk) 12:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I now see your comments in § Is it applied to transliterarions? and think I understand your concern. You want to ensure that {{Lang/with italics}} enforces MOS:BADITALICS by throwing errors on manual italicization of non-Roman scripts. I created it because {{Lang}} was throwing errors on italicization in French text, but I see that my examples included italicized non-Roman text, which are not acceptable. I'll adjust the template accordingly momentarily. Daask (talk) 13:01, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. Mathglot (talk) 15:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Is it applied to transliterarions?

Please see Talk:Kompromat#Why_is_the_word_so_small?. Two issues: (2) the complaint abouot fontsize and (1) (my question: Is the usage {{lang|ru|Kompromat}} (Kompromat) valid or only {{lang|ru|компромат}} makes sense? --Altenmann >talk 23:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Please use {{lang|xx-Latn}} or {{tlit}} for transliterations: IETF codes assume the "native" script with a bare language code, so ru assumes Cyrillic (i.e. explicitly ru-Cyrl). Using the transliteration template {{tlit|ru}} would tag as ru-Latn (i.e. Russian written using the Latin alphabet)

So, {{lang|ru|Компромат}} {{tlit|ru|Kompromat}} → Компромат Kompromat. If you have any questions lmk Remsense ‥ 论 23:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thx, great. But what about the complaint in Talk:Kompromat#Why_is_the_word_so_small?? --Altenmann >talk 00:11, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I've responded there. Remsense ‥ 论 00:20, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Not great at all; the italics make me start off seeing it as Cyrillic italic. I read {{tlit|ru|Kompromat}} → Kompromat as the italicized version of the unpronounceable mish-mash Котротаъ, which rendered in italics almost looks like the word under discussion (here rendered on two lines, to illustrate the problem):

• Котротаъ – fake word 'Котротаъ' in italics
• Kompromat – from {{tlit|ru|Kompromat}} → Kompromat — real Russian word Компромат, romanized

See the problem? Makes me backtrack and reparse. The ' r ' is a clue, but it depends how clear my glasses are, and what time it is. Isn't there a guideline somewhere about not italicizing Cyrillic? There's a good reason for that. Mathglot (talk) 01:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Found it: MOS:BADITALICS. Mathglot (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Georgian italics

In Langx, Georgian (code "ka") is currently italicized by default but shouldn't be, per WP:FOREIGNITALIC. — Goszei (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Use {{lang-ka}}. That template is not one that will be converted to {{langx}} because it is based on {{language with name}} and also uses {{ka-translit}}.

{{lang-ka|ქართული ენა}} → Georgian: ქართული ენა

I expect in a future version of {{langx}} to implement the same auto-italic code that is used by {{lang}}:

{{lang|ka|ქართული ენა}} → ქართული ენა

If you are seeing editors switching {{lang-ka|...}} to {{lang|ka|...}}, please ask them to stop.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Lua error in Module:Lang at line 1422: attempt to concatenate a nil value

This error show on the page Wicked City (1987 film). 118.3.227.103 (talk) 15:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ping Trappist the monk (last editor), it also shows up at MOS:FORITA. Sam Sailor 15:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Wow, that was fast! 118.3.227.103 (talk) 16:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Error when displaying Japanese text

I don't know if this is the right place for a bug report, but instead of the Japanese text and romaji equivalent I get this message: "Lua error in Module:Lang at line 1422: attempt to concatenate a nil value.".

The text was displaying correctly until I clicked on the donate button with the scroll-wheel (which opened the page in a new tab). Now any page I go on has this error message instead of the Japanese text, even when I refresh or close and reopen a page.

I am using Firefox and Ecosia. Luu-meer (talk) 15:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:04, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Tracking categories

Could you add the following tracking categories to the module?

• Unknown parameters (Module:Check for unknown parameters or manually)
• When langx is used with |label=none, since that usage should just be converted to lang instead.

Gonnym (talk) 08:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We might do an unsupported parameters test in future.

We might create a maint cat for |label=none, but:

{{lang-es|casa|lit=house|label=none}} → casa, 'house'

{{langx|es|casa|lit=house|label=none}} → casa, 'house'

{{lang|es|casa|lit=house}} → casa

There is a set of parameters that are common to both {{lang}} and {{langx}}:

|code=, {{{1}}}, |text=, {{{2}}}, |rtl=, |italic=, |italics=, |i=, |size=, |proto=, |nocat=, |cat=

We must not categorize any {{langx}} with |label=none that uses parameters not supported by {{lang}}:

|translit=, |translit-std=, |translit-script=, |translation=, |lit=, {{{4}}}, |label=, |link=, |script=, |region=, |variant=, |engvar=

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It's great that you still know the ins and outs of this module. I really only thought the difference between these two templates is the existence of a label, not that langx has other unique features. Gonnym (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Related to this, is the fact that these features aren't offered for lang a deliberate decision? Gonnym (talk) 14:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

If a deliberate decision taken, I was not party to it. My goal when creating Module:Lang was to provide a uniform support structure for as many {{lang-??}} templates as possible. The commonalities between {{lang}} and the {{lang-??}} were not considered except to reuse code that supports both.

Before you suggest it, I'm not interested in thinking about expanding the {{lang}} parameter set; too much other going on right now. Let us first finish consolidating {{lang-??}} into {{langx}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

lang-en

Moved from User talk:Trappist the monk § lang-en

{{langx}} shouldn't say "The non-English text to display." when |en| is allowed (as it should, since lang-en is being merged with it). Or at least "Text" shouldn't be a "Required field" as I can put "Literal translation". Web-julio (talk) 03:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia is written in English so there is relatively little need to use any of {{lang}}, {{lang-en}}, or {{langx}} to markup English-language text.

The primary purpose of any of the lang templates is to properly construct html markup around non-English text so that browsers and screen readers know how to display or speak non-English text. At {{lang-en}} is this (preserved here because someday {{lang-en}} and its subpages will be deleted):

Because this is English Wikipedia, the facts that a) the content is in English by default, and that b) the word "English" refers to the English language, are generally taken to be understood. Unlike many multilingual support templates, this template does not link the language name by default. To activate the link, add the |link=yes parameter.

In most cases, there is no reason to use this template, unless you have a specific technical need for it. This template exists principally as a placeholder for interwiki purposes.

Legitimate use almost always involves automation. The vast majority of needed uses of this template are cases where {{lang-xx}} has values, possibly including en, inserted for xx automatically by software tools such as templates and bots.

Some editors would also include using it in lists and tables that are using other such templates (e.g. {{lang-es}} for Spanish) to provide multiple translations of something, where consistency of output is desirable. However even in these cases it is better to use plain text, because  {{lang-en|foo}}  is three characters longer than simply  English: foo  and wastes performance on template parsing. That said, the form {{lang-en|foo}} could be useful in such a table in a linguistics or language usage article, where a link to English language could be genuinely relevant in the context.

It is rarely ever useful in ordinary article prose. Instead, for translating a foreign word, use {{gloss}}:

• {{lang-es|casa}}, {{gloss|house}}

giving

• {{lang-es|casa}}, {{gloss|house}}

rather than:

• {{lang-es|casa}}, {{lang-en|'house'}}

giving

• {{lang-es|casa}}, {{lang-en|'house'}}

which is pointless on en.wikipedia.org.

That, in whole or in part, should perhaps be included (as a note?) in the {{langx}} documentation. The {{langx}} doc might also be tweaked to incorporate parts of the {{lang}} documentation.

I don't know what you mean by "Text" shouldn't be a "Required field" as I can put "Literal translation". Explain?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:26, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

For example, cases like {{lang|es|casa}} ({{langx|en|house}}) casa (English: house) are a very understandable use of lang-en/langx|en. Web-julio (talk) 03:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Helpful guide for when to use this versus {{lang-zh}} etc

Inline templates for marking up Chinese characters

Template	Languages	Scripts	Transliterations	Translation	Labels
{{Hani}}	Any	—	—	No	No
{{CJKV}}	Chinese Japanese Korean Vietnamese	Simplified Chinese Traditional Chinese Japanese writing system Hangul Vietnamese alphabet	Hanyu Pinyin Tongyong Pinyin Cantonese Yale Jyutping Wade–Giles Japanese romanization Korean romanization	Yes	Always
{{lang-zh}}	Chinese	Traditional Chinese Simplified Chinese	Hanyu Pinyin Bopomofo Tongyong Pinyin Cantonese Yale Jyutping Wade–Giles Sidney Lau Pe̍h-ōe-jī Tâi-lô	Yes	Optional
{{Nihongo}}	Japanese	Japanese writing system	Hepburn	Yes	Optional
{{Nihongo2}}	Japanese	Japanese writing system	—	No	No
{{Korean}}	Korean	Hangul Hanja	Revised Romanization McCune–Reischauer	Yes	Optional
{{Hanja}}	Korean	Hanja	—	No	Always
{{Vi-nom}}	Vietnamese	Chữ Nôm	—	No	No
{{Lang}}	Any	Any	Any	No	No
{{Langx}}	Any	Any	Any	Yes	Optional

--HarJIT (talk) 13:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Typo in "Langx |italic= parameter operation" section

In the Italic=value (last section of table), in the second entry, we see {{Langx|ru|''тундра''|italic=}invert}}. There appears to be an extra right-brace right after "italic=". Tarl N. (discuss) 13:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize my request was going to Template talk:Lang. The typo I'm referring to is in the Template:Langx section "Langx |italic= parameter operation" section. Why does the talk page for langx drop one here? Tarl N. (discuss) 02:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

That error was fixed with this edit. This talk page is the centralized discussion page for several related templates and modules.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 02:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. Tarl N. (discuss) 00:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Missing languages

We need the ability to feed languages outside ISO, for example, such as Old West Norse, Old East Norse, Old Swedish, Early Modern Swedish, Late Modern Swedish, etc. Blockhaj (talk) 08:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

No we do not, in my opinion. Remsense ‥ 论 09:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ur reasoning? Why limit ourselfs. Blockhaj (talk) 10:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Same reason as always: it serves insufficient concrete benefit to editors or readers, while increasing technical, conceptual, and potentially epistemological complexity. At this level of diachronic granularity, whose schemas are we meant to use? There's a reason ISO took on the task of producing a standard for this to begin with, wouldn't you agree? Remsense ‥ 论 10:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the argument "insufficient concrete benefit to editors or readers". Current limits are limiting in a bad way. I feel we should instead strive for commonality with Wiktionary, whos expanded schemas i propose we use. Blockhaj (talk) 11:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

As you are locking in the argument that there are concrete issues to be solved, would you mind directly articulating what they are? Remsense ‥ 论 22:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is sufficient need, we can create IETF private use tags for languages not directly supported in the IANA language-subtag-registry file. The list of currently supported private-use tags is at Template:Lang § Private-use language tags.

Language templates based on Module:Lang will not adopt the mishmash of nonstandard tags that are supported at wiktionary.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Ty. Blockhaj (talk) 17:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

extra params?

|anglicization= / |anglisation= and |romanization= / |romanisation= would be useful, |translation= and |transliteration= and |lit= provide a translation, transliteration, and literal meaning; but if something has an older anglicization, that should also be available (ie. Crackow, etc), and a romanized form that is different from transliteration, because of some oddball or non-English choices in letter/character use, or because the language uses both latin and non-latin script, making the latin script version not a transliteration ; also for extended latin alphabets to basic latin alphabetic forms -- 65.92.246.77 (talk) 11:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Private-use language tags

I propose the addition of the following private-use tags:

• Old East Norse: non-x-east
  • Old Norwegian: nor-x-old
    • Middle Norwegian: nor-x-middle
• Old West Norse: non-x-west
  • Old Swedish: swe-x-old
    • Early Modern Swedish: swe-x-ems
      • Late Modern Swedish: swe-x-lms
  • Middle Danish: dan-x-middle
    • Modern Danish: dan-x-modern

Blockhaj (talk) 17:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

tracking sr usage with issues

@Trappist the monk I noticed {{lang-sr}} was deleted after the bot replaced its usage, but it also had a couple of semantic problems previously discussed at Template talk:Lang-sr and Talk:Romanization of Serbian that were never resolved:

• a lot of text is marked as just "Serbian" but we don't know if it's Latin, in which case it should be italicized, or if it's Cyrillic, in which case it shouldn't

for example the lead section of Belgrade has:

Serbian: Београд / Beograd

and the latter part of that fails MOS:FOREIGNITALIC

• its third parameter was sometimes used to show the other script, but would mark it as "romanization", which may or may not be good - when discussing 500-year-old sources it's probably fine, but when discussing something from the last 50 years it's basically very weird

for example as it was before this fix:

Serbian: Слобода, romanized: Sloboda

and there is no "romanization" in the latter half of the 20th century, the company's name in Latin was of the same significance as its name in Cyrillic

How can we address these now with langx? Can we get at least some tracking categories if these symptoms are detected, so they can be checked? --Joy (talk) 09:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

If this is such a problem, why wasn't {{lang-sr}} deleted long ago? Didn't we create {{lang-x2}}, {{lang-sr-Cyrl-Latn}}, and {{lang-sr-Latn-Cyrl}} specifically to address this issue? Also, {{lang-sr-Cyrl}} and {{lang-sr-Latn}}?

This crude search finds about 4900 articles that use {{langx|sr|...}} and this crude search finds about 1500 articles that have {{langx|sr|<parameter>|<another parameter>|...}}. <another parameter> could be a named parameter or a 'transliteration'.

I am opposed to one-off special-case code. Module:Lang/langx has a list of unsupported language tags. Use of {{langx}} with any of those tags adds the page to Category:Langx uses unsupported language tag. I will add sr to that list. In future, some of the currently unsupported language tags will be converted to supported private use tags. After that, I expect that the module will be tweaked so that the remaining unsupported language tags will cause the module to emit error messages.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC) 15:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) additional templates

I would guess the reason is that nobody in the know really wanted to create a TfD that would have required a check and possibly a change to 5k articles when lang-sr can be perfectly fine if the input text is only one Cyrillic parameter. We don't want to emit error messages to readers for that. How can we best manage this process of converting to different tags?

BTW I also noticed that the old template had code to add Category:Instances of Lang-sr using second unnamed parameter since 2016, so the removal of this part is a bit of a regression. --Joy (talk) 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The day after I created Module:Lang/langx, I made myself a TODO-note wondering if {{langx}} couldn't auto-italicize in a manner similar to {{lang}}. Sometime later I wrote a hack to do just that. I have moved that hack into Module:Lang/sandbox. What the {{langx/sandbox}} renderings look like compared to the live {{lang}} and {{langx}} template renderings can be seen in this version of my sandbox (permalink). The hack should probably be rewritten so that Module:Lang will work for those other-language wikis that don't / won't support {{langx}}. Any {{lang-??}} templates that remain after the conversion will need to be checked to ensure that they continue to work as they were intended.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

OK so if I read that right, overall the outcome would be that Serbian Latin would be italicized, and combinations still need manual interventions en masse? --Joy (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Of course, but you knew that. The new:

{{langx|sr|Београд / Beograd|lit=White City}}

is just as broken as the old:

{{lang-sr|Београд / Beograd|lit=White City}}

which is why you wrote {{lang-sr-Cyrl-Latn}} and its companions:

{{lang-sr-Cyrl-Latn|Београд|Beograd|White City}} → Serbian: Београд, Beograd, lit. 'White City'

I imagine that you might write an awb script that is sufficiently clever to create {{lang-sr-Cyrl-Latn}} from {{langx|sr|Београд|Beograd|White City}}. Mayhaps even from {{langx|sr|Београд / Beograd|lit=White City}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)